Curse

ComMan · Jun 10, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

There's nothing wrong with farming, as long as I don't have to do it.

Siren · Jun 10, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

So, since those that are powergrinders and powerlevelers have already ammased a huge quantity of gold, unlocked all their runes, and have back-up top damage weapons for each day of the week, the casual farmer gets screwed.

That is the problem here. I am looking at the possibility that I will not be able to use a superior vigor in PvP. I cannot afford it, you want there to be less money and I have none, and it looks like I will not find a Superior Vigor, the way they keep cutting drops.

Now, there is a ever largening gap between the very rich and those trying to catch up, and cutting off the money supply will not help.

I'm no powergrinder, so my gold isn't nearing millions, either, I'm looking at the same problem as you are, Chev. We're in the same boat. There's this insanely huge hoop we have to jump through...and that's the point. Hear me out.

The current state of the GW economy is due to a few different factors, but the largest one by and by is gold accumulation. The rune traders are purely incidental, as are the weapons, the armor, etc. Everything is directly dependent on the amount of gold that players can accumulate.

And it is because of that gold that drops in such high amounts in the later areas in the game where we hear of most of the powergrinders farming that inevitably sends the economy into massive inflation. Those gamers set the price for everything. Why? Because they have the monies.

You can already see this price gouging, as it were. Rune traders were introduced just a few days ago, and already the price of a Minor Energy Storage Rune is at 6 platinum, I think. The reason for that is because the high-end players are the ones setting the price. The Vigor runes are selling for something like 15k, which certainly is an improvement over what was going on previously, but it's nowhere near appropriate, because you're still going to have the high-end powergrinders sending the market into grotesque fluctuations.

So how do you stop that? Selling things at higher prices isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because higher prices merely treats a symptom of the problem (removing gold from the economy).

Instituting the rune traders isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because they're merely treating a symptom of the problem (directly player-controlled prices).

Money sinks are a nice idea, for sure, and there have been a few really sweet suggestions (the stylist one is probably my favorite of the bunch), but what good are money sinks when there's still massive amounts of gold being generated, then flooding the economy, even with the money sinks in place?

If we really want to straight-up stop the price gouging, we need to cut off the gold at its source:

The high-end powergrinding/farming locations.

That's where this is all coming from, because unless one plays a few hundred hours in the Ascalon City area, you're simply not going to see those kinds of amounts of gold until close to end-game, agreed?

So the solution to the price gouging, rune gouging, etc., is merely cut down on the high-end gold drops, which sounds like it's being worked in.

You'd still have the low-end gold drops, which is more than enough to buy the incidental items (salvage kits, IDs, and so on), and if push comes to shove, the rune traders will need a major overhaul...

It might go like this:

First tier runes (Minors) at traders in the first third of the game.

Second tier runes (Majors) and first tiers at traders in the middle third of the game.

Third tier runes (Superiors), second, and first tiers at traders in the final third of the game.

This would be done in conjunction with the so-called "gold revamp" of the high-end areas, and of course, the prices of the runes in their respective traders would be priced accordingly, as well.

Now, granted this idea isn't completely secure; there are still potential loopholes in there, like more advanced players (levels 16-20) buying Superior runes in say, Underworld, then traveling to AC and distributing them to low-level guildies.

Simple fix for this would be to set rune requirements, similar to weapon level requirements on swords and such. I'm not suggesting that a Major Energy Storage require 9 Energy Storage, though. What I'm suggesting is that Major Energy Storage require a character level of 8 or so to be able to fully benefit...or really, benefit at all. lol

So...yeah. Not sure if I replied with anything substantial (or anything related to your point), but I hope I said something intelligent.

Eclair · Jun 10, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I'm no powergrinder, so my gold isn't nearing millions, either, I'm looking at the same problem as you are, Chev. We're in the same boat. There's this insanely huge hoop we have to jump through...and that's the point. Hear me out.

The current state of the GW economy is due to a few different factors, but the largest one by and by is gold accumulation. The rune traders are purely incidental, as are the weapons, the armor, etc. Everything is directly dependent on the amount of gold that players can accumulate.

And it is because of that gold that drops in such high amounts in the later areas in the game where we hear of most of the powergrinders farming that inevitably sends the economy into massive inflation. Those gamers set the price for everything. Why? Because they have the monies.

You can already see this price gouging, as it were. Rune traders were introduced just a few days ago, and already the price of a Minor Energy Storage Rune is at 6 platinum, I think. The reason for that is because the high-end players are the ones setting the price. The Vigor runes are selling for something like 15k, which certainly is an improvement over what was going on previously, but it's nowhere near appropriate, because you're still going to have the high-end powergrinders sending the market into grotesque fluctuations.

So how do you stop that? Selling things at higher prices isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because higher prices merely treats a symptom of the problem (removing gold from the economy).

Instituting the rune traders isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because they're merely treating a symptom of the problem (directly player-controlled prices).

Money sinks are a nice idea, for sure, and there have been a few really sweet suggestions (the stylist one is probably my favorite of the bunch), but what good are money sinks when there's still massive amounts of gold being generated, then flooding the economy, even with the money sinks in place?

If we really want to straight-up stop the price gouging, we need to cut off the gold at its source:

The high-end powergrinding/farming locations.

That's where this is all coming from, because unless one plays a few hundred hours in the Ascalon City area, you're simply not going to see those kinds of amounts of gold until close to end-game, agreed?

So the solution to the price gouging, rune gouging, etc., is merely cut down on the high-end gold drops, which sounds like it's being worked in.

You'd still have the low-end gold drops, which is more than enough to buy the incidental items (salvage kits, IDs, and so on), and if push comes to shove, the rune traders will need a major overhaul...

It might go like this:

First tier runes (Minors) at traders in the first third of the game.

Second tier runes (Majors) and first tiers at traders in the middle third of the game.

Third tier runes (Superiors), second, and first tiers at traders in the final third of the game.

This would be done in conjunction with the so-called "gold revamp" of the high-end areas, and of course, the prices of the runes in their respective traders would be priced accordingly, as well.

Now, granted this idea isn't completely secure; there are still potential loopholes in there, like more advanced players (levels 16-20) buying Superior runes in say, Underworld, then traveling to AC and distributing them to low-level guildies.

Simple fix for this would be to set rune requirements, similar to weapon level requirements on swords and such. I'm not suggesting that a Major Energy Storage require 9 Energy Storage, though. What I'm suggesting is that Major Energy Storage require a character level of 8 or so to be able to fully benefit...or really, benefit at all. lol

So...yeah. Not sure if I replied with anything substantial (or anything related to your point), but I hope I said something intelligent.

Cutting down on the overall amount of rares introduced into the game will just cause their prices to go up higher, because since they're rarer, people will be willing to offer far more. In comparision, their price might not go up that much, but when people have far less gold, they'd be even more difficult to get for many but the richest. If you want to drop the price down, just have more money sink and MORE rare drops, that'd cause Superior vigors and Absorbtions to go down.

Chev of Hardass · Jun 10, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I'm no powergrinder, so my gold isn't nearing millions, either, I'm looking at the same problem as you are, Chev. We're in the same boat. There's this insanely huge hoop we have to jump through...and that's the point. Hear me out.
..............

I see you point, that the money supply needs to be cut off to curb inflation. However, that is only a bandaid. If that were to be effectively done, the money in the hands of the the rich would need to be removed from them.

Why, you ask? Why would they sell a top damage sword, if they could only get 1K from it when they have 100's of Ks. It is not worth their time, and if they cut off money I will not be able to make it worth thier time.

Also, if this were done, the prices of the runes would need to drop substancially. As is, I will not be able to afford a Superior Vigor untill I farm for months, since the drops have droped into the unsaleable range and the changes have made farming less fun or productive.

So, what do I want? Access to the same things that those that have unlocked all thier runes had access to.

I found a nice farming build here, on GWG, pre-release. I realized then, that I would need to build one farming character. This was not hard and really only required some creativity and the skills to do it. Now, that I have built my non-farming character as much as I can (with 0 skill points left), and finished my farming build (got to farm for about 30 miutes with it before the update), I want only one thing, access to the same things that othe players have access to.

I am willing to work for it. Farming used to be fun to me. I used to try to see just how many White Mantle I could get on me and still survive. This is a personal challenge, and never helped in PvP, since melee is not an integral part of PvP. I admit I went into this game understaning more about it than the average player (I played several BWEs), so I knew what I was in store for. Now, I don't know what to do. I can't find enough moey to buy my nice looking armor, runes, or weapons. And the storyline has been made easier and easier with every update, so ther is even less challenge to the standard PvE side of this game for me.

I guess I ask, then why doesn't everyone farm? Why is that not a solution? No, you do not have to farm, but you could have. Now you can't and the team at A.Net is making it harder to farm and less usefull all the time.

Really why did they cut it off on me? Why did they not wait till I had the items I wanted? Many players got the items they wanted.

Again, this was suppoed to be a game about skill. Not time spent playing. Well, since I do not have access to the same things that all the players have, I conclude that time spent is really the deciding factor. I see runes as this distant far off thing, that I cannot obtain. Some people say that they do not makde the player, but I cannot confirm that till I get to try them, and I know that skills sure help a player be competiave.

Kishin · Jun 10, 2005, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I'm no powergrinder, so my gold isn't nearing millions, either, I'm looking at the same problem as you are, Chev. We're in the same boat. There's this insanely huge hoop we have to jump through...and that's the point. Hear me out.

The current state of the GW economy is due to a few different factors, but the largest one by and by is gold accumulation. The rune traders are purely incidental, as are the weapons, the armor, etc. Everything is directly dependent on the amount of gold that players can accumulate.

And it is because of that gold that drops in such high amounts in the later areas in the game where we hear of most of the powergrinders farming that inevitably sends the economy into massive inflation. Those gamers set the price for everything. Why? Because they have the monies.

You can already see this price gouging, as it were. Rune traders were introduced just a few days ago, and already the price of a Minor Energy Storage Rune is at 6 platinum, I think. The reason for that is because the high-end players are the ones setting the price. The Vigor runes are selling for something like 15k, which certainly is an improvement over what was going on previously, but it's nowhere near appropriate, because you're still going to have the high-end powergrinders sending the market into grotesque fluctuations.

So how do you stop that? Selling things at higher prices isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because higher prices merely treats a symptom of the problem (removing gold from the economy).

Instituting the rune traders isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because they're merely treating a symptom of the problem (directly player-controlled prices).

Money sinks are a nice idea, for sure, and there have been a few really sweet suggestions (the stylist one is probably my favorite of the bunch), but what good are money sinks when there's still massive amounts of gold being generated, then flooding the economy, even with the money sinks in place?

If we really want to straight-up stop the price gouging, we need to cut off the gold at its source:

The high-end powergrinding/farming locations..

Player demand is what is setting the prices of the runes. Elementalists (and thereby Energy Storage) is popular, and having even a minor if you can spare an armor slot isn't a bad idea, as its extra energy. Same thing with vigor runes. There's no reason not to have one if you can afford a slot, and they're beneficial to EVERY class, so naturally tons of people will buy them, driving their prices up.

Meanwhile, Superior Beast Mastery runes are selling for 600 gold, and most Mesmer runes that aren't Domination are similarly ludicrously cheap, because no one is buying them.

Crippling farming cripples gold gain and drop rates, which are already abysmal (When low grade white items are dropping in the Crystal Desert, there's a problem. If they're clean max damages, or near to max, that's another issue entirely), making it even harder to afford things like 15K armors, Superior Runes, Underworld/Fissure gear, High end weapons, etc. al

Furthermore, its because of the low drop rate that farming even takes place, as a lot of high end PvP guilds struggle to unlock or acquire runes for their builds (And nobody is allowed to say anything about not needing runes to be competitively or runes not having a significant impact until they compare the effects of some skills, particularly Monk and Elem ones, at 13, the max without runes, 12+hat) and 16, the max with a superior rune and hat) and a lot of high end PvErs struggle to make the cash they need to buy 15K armor or a Sigil.

The short of it is that asking for further farming nerfs without adequate measures to fix the root cause of farming is basically shooting yourself in the foot.

Of course, this opens up a whole new can of worms with people who think that increasing the drop rate (the most likely solution) makes life too easy.
So what's really the problem is the impossibility of a happy medium.

Dyeeo · Jun 10, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Lets face it. Although the game WAS designed to be based on skill but not items, it is absolutely based on items. I mean come on. The same peoples saying that skills are important and items are not are saying that having 10 more health gives you an utter advantage in the top tiers of pvp. You have to forget about the false advertising because now that there are people that have most of the good items unlocked and most of the elite skills unlocked, normal players are not going to be able to catch up.

Guild wars is centered around ITEMS AND SKILLS or else they would not have added the feature to unlock item upgrades.

This is a bad cycle because all the people who dont have money at this point are NEVER EVER going to get enough money for the sweet things in the game like item upgrades, 15k armor, etc while the already rich are going to trade amongst themselves because none of the poor can pay for the prices they set.

Items are a large part of what makes PvE fun. Nerf the items and you can expect people that play PvE to stop buying Guildwars which would, from a business standpoint, make the servers for the game really hard to maintain and pay for.

Sidenote: I am NOT blaming the rich. It is not their fault. They just farmed when they could which is totally natural. Its just they suddenly found themselves extremely rich because now there was no way for any normal player to get any significant amount of gold.

Shagsbeard · Jun 11, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

writing that in bold black typeface doesn't make it true.

This game is not "about" items. Common items are so close to the power of "best" items that only a fool would spend time looking for one.

MoldyRiceFrenzy · Jun 11, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

hmm well if ur farming its not really much of an unfair advantage, cause i mean ur spending ur own time, other people can farm , but are to lazy to , it would be better to have a goul to farming such as quest though, it would give the ''farming'' meaning

Dyeeo · Jun 11, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

writing that in bold black typeface doesn't make it true.

This game is not "about" items. Common items are so close to the power of "best" items that only a fool would spend time looking for one.

So then why are people complaining about people farming for items.

eA-Zaku · Jun 11, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Because they are jealous they can't get a statistically perfect item, when the second-best item that they currently have will do perfectly fine.

Studio Ghibli · Jun 11, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

I do not farm because I want better items.

I farm because I like finding items.

Dyeeo · Jun 11, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

I agree with Studio Ghibli. That is exactly why I farm. However I just wanted to bring up the people who DO farm for "better" items.

The Pope · Jun 11, 2005, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

Because they are jealous they can't get a statistically perfect item, when the second-best item that they currently have will do perfectly fine.

Actually it has more to do with honour. People from competitive FPS/RTS games are interested in winning based on how well they play, and any imbalance of items cheapens the wins.

Dyeeo · Jun 11, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

How does it cheapen the win at all? Say I am playing UT04. I have an assult rifle and the enemy has a instagib shock rifle. Say I lose, then oh well I try again. Winning against the enemy with stronger weapons feels much better and is humuliating to the opposition. Besides, if you lose to someone with better items then you, you can just blame it on equipement (though I would never do that.)

Weezer_Blue · Jun 11, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Don't lie to yourself. You're not a normal player. Least of all, you're not a PvPer in the slightest. Don't try and convince us that "farming is fun" so that we'll enjoy the game when it's clearly contrary to every PvPer's oppinion.

Teufel Eldritch · Jun 11, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

I wonder...if unlocking all the skills for PvPers would affect the PvE economy positvely? There would be far less grinders grinding their way thru the game which should help with the economy... shouldn't it?

StandardAI · Jun 11, 2005, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Within every patch they make the path of the treadmill they claimed the game wouldn't have longer and longer. If something is not fixed the endgame will be a couple of alpha guilds competing on the retail server.

Warlord Teriel · Jun 11, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

I love farming... Ive added about 40+ hours to my character from it. Those 40+ hours wouldnt be there if I wasnt farming.

40% of my guild has stated they stopped playing since Anet has nerfed farming so much. Thats what they enjoyed.

60% of my guild went on to PvP. Thats what they enjoyed.

90%+ of us will buy the expansion. Thats out of both groups.

I think Anets plan is working perfect!

Make a game,

Sell it to make money.

Pay Devs to upgrade it while making no money from monthy fees.. no way to replenish the money they are paying the devs so..

Get some people to stop playing it until the next expansion so your not paying so much to keep your servers running.

Keep as many people as you can interested enough to buy the expansion to get more money.

Lets face it.. Farming hurts Anets pocket worse then it hurts anybody else.

If they would have left flesh golems and riverside alone you really think they would have lost a bigger player base? My guess is more people would still be playing.

Just something I thought up in my sleep.

Phantom Force · Jun 11, 2005, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warlord Teriel

I think Anets plan is working perfect!

Make a game,

Sell it to make money.

Pay Devs to upgrade it while making no money from monthy fees.. no way to replenish the money they are paying the devs so..

Get some people to stop playing it until the next expansion so your not paying so much to keep your servers running.

Keep as many people as you can interested enough to buy the expansion to get more money.

Lets face it.. Farming hurts Anets pocket worse then it hurts anybody else.

If they would have left flesh golems and riverside alone you really think they would have lost a bigger player base? My guess is more people would still be playing.

Just something I thought up in my sleep.

How does farming hurt Anet? This is not really a valid point especially seeing that if you need to unlock items you CAN'T do it easily through normal game play. It requires a little farming to get money and items. You're not farming like in D2 for 10,000 hours to get items. The farming that ruined games like D2 is the botting and the hacks. Farming won't hurt Anets pockets only keep people interested in the game by giving them something more to do than PvP.
Not everyone wants to PvP when they are done with the game, some people like to take a break from that. What else will hold you over til next expansion in 6 months? Helping a buddy, yeah right that will last about a week if that. Nerfing drops so they weren't so common was fine, I agree that if you could get 4 gold items by killing a 15-20 flesh golems that is a little insane. But to out right make it impossible let alone there are people who have not farmed an not even unlocked superiors and stuff by playing the game regular. Hell they may as well just give me the items for free so I can have them unlocked. Can't farm for them, can't buy them (unless you have a lot of money to keep buying unid'd ones), and definitely can't get them just playing the game through. Removing farming is not key, you're guild may be majority PvP but you're not the only guild. Other guilds like to PvE, farm, help friends, and do a little PvP. Yes GW will prolly last for an expansion even if they start losing people. But if people leave the game because they have nothing to do or are bored, an expansion will not bring them all back. Anet needs to keep all it's customers or eventually its life will be shorter than most online games. They have a lot of excellent ideas but taking certain thigns away that keep players is not one of them.

BrokenSymmetry · Jun 11, 2005, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom Force

What else will hold you over til next expansion in 6 months?

What about: Playing another game, doing something useful in real life like studying, finding a job/girlfriend, etc. Guild Wars is meant to be enjoyed by gamers who want to have fun for 1/2/3 hours every day, a few times a week, or even once every few weeks. It's not meant to be a way of life, or a substitute for a job or even life.
Most non-MMORPG computer and console games typically take 10-20 hours, and are consumed over a period of 1-4 weeks in 1-hour sessions. That's healthy and enjoyable gaming to me. But somehow MMORPG's (which Guild Wars even isn't) are expected to last forever by people who want to play 10+ hours day. My suggestion is: Limit your Guild Wars playing to 2 hours a day, and you can have fun with it for a few months at least, just playing the game as it is.